Curse

zamial · May 09, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

What I do not like or understand is the animosity that exists between these to aspects of the same game amongst its players. Is there a way to over come this? The "PvE scrubs" or the "PvP idiots". It should not exist. It is 1 thing to talk like that amongst your guildies and friends but to post this all over forums and in game? Why? PvP and PvE both have good players and bad ones but to say my side is better than the other is plain stupidity on the part of those that think this way. Stupidity can be overcome with knowledge and the point of this thread is to create awareness and to discuss possible ways to do overcome this mindset.

FoxBat · May 09, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

PvP isn't getting any more balances and will stagnate and die, I don't see how this is an issue anymore. This thread won't last long either...

Kakumei · May 09, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

A lot of people are dumb. A thread isn't going to change that.

snaek · May 09, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

the difficulty levels for any game:
easy>normal>hard>pvp

jackers1234 · May 09, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

you raise a very good point, as i know some very good, (and also some very bad), players in each aspect of the game.

each of these aspects is aimed at a different type of game player. pve being for more casual players who enjoy the rpg storyline side of the game, and pvp is for the more hardcore players, who like to spend more time playing, and also playing at a higher (percieved) skill level.

personally, i enjoy both parts of the game, but i play more pvp than pve, as i find it more engaging. but that doesnt mean i dont enjoy the odd hard mode mission or farming trip with friends.

however, on a side note, this thread is probably going to turn into a flame-fest, or go completely off-topic within another few posts, but oh well, good job on starting this anyway ^^

the_jos · May 09, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Is there a way to over come this? The "PvE scrubs" or the "PvP idiots". It should not exist.

There are a lot of things that should not exist but do.

The typical PvP player for me would be a person that feels the need to be the best (or at least very good).
The typical PvE player would be someone who plays more for relaxation and less to be the best.
There are some exceptions, specially PvE players who like to be the best in PvE but that cannot really be compared to fighting and winning against human players.
It's like comparing people who play Counter Strike to people playing let's say Sims Online.

Now with two distinct types of players there will be tension.
That's not good, not bad, just different kind of people.

Tatile · May 09, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

I'm a PvE'er. I do not PvP due to the fact that I am bad at it. Very bad indeed. My ability to strategise and think on the fly does not work for PvP. I would like to, PvP sounds like a lot of fun, alas it is not fun I can have.

This does not make me at all bitter to PvP or PvP'ers, mind you. I find my fun elsewhere and leave PvP alone. Well alone (my involvement is an insult to proper PvP'ers, I feel).

I understand why some people choose to taunt PvE/P'ers, but I still think it child-ish and unnecessary. So what if someone has fun in a different aspect fo the game? Big whoop, why should it bother you (if it's not harming you)?

Honestly, just leave the divide alone. It's there, it always will be, no need to touch it.

Zahr Dalsk · May 09, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

the difficulty levels for any game:
easy>normal>hard>pvp

Better version:

Random Arenas (wammos, lol) >
Normal PvE Areas (average areas) >
Team Arenas (go go gimmicks) >
Hard PvE Areas (Realm of Torment) >
Heroes' Ascent (go go metagame) >
Elite Missions (they're here for time required and the lack of an H/H option) >
Guild vs Guild (difficult forming decent teams) >
Standing Around In Towns Haranguing The Masses (also the most fun)

At least, that's pretty much the order of things as I did them from least to hardest. Now I pretty much hover around SAITHTM, what I view as the true Guild Wars endgame.

Orange Milk · May 09, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

PvPer vs PvEer animosity exists for the same reason Jocks vs Nerds exsists in RL. Same reasons people live beyond their means just to show off better stuff to their neighbor.

It's nothing to do with the game, it's just human nature.

doudou_steve · May 09, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

There are a lot of things that should not exist but do.

The typical PvP player for me would be a person that feels the need to be the best (or at least very good).
The typical PvE player would be someone who plays more for relaxation and less to be the best.
There are some exceptions, specially PvE players who like to be the best in PvE but that cannot really be compared to fighting and winning against human players.
It's like comparing people who play Counter Strike to people playing let's say Sims Online.

Now with two distinct types of players there will be tension.
That's not good, not bad, just different kind of people.

QFT, thats what i was exactly going to say

Chthon · May 09, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

What I do not like or understand is the animosity that exists between these to aspects of the same game amongst its players.

Mostly, it comes from the fact that they have opposing interests when it comes to game updates. For a very long time, PvP issues were given top priority by the devs, even at the expense of doing serious damage to the PvE experience -- which is something that ended up happening quite a bit. Every time they got their builds ruined or their favor skills nerfed to dust, PvEers became more and more resentful (and understandably so), thus the PvE-to-PvP animosity. I'm not quite sure where the PvP-to-PvE animosity comes from, but I'd speculate that it's a combination of (1) disliking the PvEers who dislike them right back, (2) disliking anyone who's speaking out on the forums against changes they need/want/like, (3) a feeling that "well, if a-net treats me special, maybe I really am special," and (4) general asshattery.

GloryFox · May 09, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

3 Things started PvP hate.

1) Ascalon Arena's in Prophecies 10th level and under.

People got ran to Droknar early in the game. They had better armor, skills, equipment for characters of 10th level and under. This left a sour taste in the mouth of many people just learning the game. Since they had to compete with people who who had an obvious uncontrolled advantage. This still happens today.

2) Rank E-motes

Before Rank Emotes for H&H people would just join up with teams and have fun. When the Rank Emotes appeared people were discriminated against on a daily basis, it only got worse over time. Fun became less and less a factor.

3) Skill updates.

It was one thing to update a skill to reflect a change that was needed in the game. For example ranger spirit spamming was a serious problem as you could create physical barriers to prevent enemies from moving into your area. For thoes that remember Power of My Rangers created some serious challenges for many teams during this H&H exploit. However ANET took another approach to the updates. They no longer fixed skills and did minor adjustments. They effectively eliminated entire skill line ups. Not just one skill in the game but multiple lines. It first started with the Ritual Lord Nerf then moved onto other entire lines of builds. Now we can argue all day if these skills were over powered thats not the point. These nerfs ruined the PvE experience that is just as important as the PvP challenge and balance. Failure to separate PvP and PvE ideals and concepts created an even stronger division. Thus the two became bitter rivals like twins trying to control the attention of a single parent.

In conclusion I don't blame the community for the division I blame ANET for promoting the hostility that continues today. In short ANet created the hostility by not fully understanding the mentality of both worlds and forcing the combination of the two on the player. This can be achieved by forcing the login to one of two servers, a PvP server and a PvE server. One server has one set of skills the other another more balanced set of skills for PvP play.

To date there is no separation of PvP and PvE skills as there should be.
Grind for PvE skills for power that prohibits many PvP players from enjoying the fun aspects of power PvE play. (For those who know what I'm speaking of I'm not referring to Ursan) PvP emotes discriminate vs. someone who might want to begin learning PvP play. Both area's of the game discriminate vs. the other.

GloryFox · May 09, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

PvPer vs PvEer animosity exists for the same reason Jocks vs Nerds exsists in RL.

I and almost all of my friends are both a Jocks and a Nerds. You will find now and days less and less of a separation. Although this might have been true 20+ years ago.

stretchs · May 09, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

PvP isn't getting any more balances and will stagnate and die, I don't see how this is an issue anymore. This thread won't last long either...

You are kidding with the no more balances part right? If not you truly are disillusioned. You think there will be no more skill balances ever again? Stop your QQ and be realistic, of course there will be.

As for the Elitism/snobbery done by pvp/pve people, it really is annoying, you have the pve = greaterest of all and pvp sux, then you have the pvp people the same way. Both look down on anyone that isnt X or Y because they were. In the end, all it does is fracture the community into fragments. You wonder why there are less PUGS (besides heros) it is the snobbery that people have bred from their elitist attitude toward their "skill" in this game.

In the end, it is a game, it has pve AND pvp, both are integral parts to it surviving now and in the future. To say you are better cause you are pro pve OR pvp is just foolish, its a game, go have some fun, stop all the snobbery and enjoy yourself and let others do the same

Molock · May 09, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I'm pretty sure the tension is related to skill updates.. the PvE's would complain when their farming builds were nerfed and would come QQ here (I should know, I once did just that) where they would get flamed.

Recently anet reverted a skill balance because they didn't want to affect the PvE aspect of the game, this gives the PvP group the idea that anet no longer cares about balance and just want to cater to the PvE'ers happiness.

Shuuda · May 09, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill, and therefore, call the competitive players "Elitist" to give them a bad image.

And +1.

quickmonty · May 09, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

...................................
It's nothing to do with the game, it's just human nature.

So true. Different people with different mind sets play whatever suits their need for entertainment. It's just a shame we all can't respect each other's differences and not resort to insults because someone else is "different".

(In before the flamefest

)

GloryFox · May 09, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill

You see that's part of the issue right there. What you are saying can be debated since there are many area's that require just as much skill in PvE. I think the DVDF UW competition proved that theory. There were many UW teams that had strong PvP players in it who simply could not complete that task before them, complete all UW quests in a fast amount of time, and yet failed in that task.

Skill in a video game can be defined as many things to many players. Overall skill usually equals the amount of time within your enviroment. Your argument is more subjective than fact. Fact would be the strong discrimination that occurs because of Rank Emotes in a public video game.

Go to H&H and tell people you are rank 1 wanting to learn the PvP game, and then see what happens. Now go to any PvE starting area and start LFG. Right away you can see the difference in attitude as the PvE area's have a friendlier approach to new players. This fact of attitude to new players PvE or PvP cannot be denied as it can be proven in actual game play. I'm not saying this is the only element of dissention between the two just one factor of many.

Darkobra · May 09, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Skill is about how you play, not where you play. The people who have just come into online gaming and think that Guild Wars is the best PVP ever in any game have a long way to go.

GloryFox · May 09, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

posted by Darkobra
Skill is about how you play, not where you play.

I agree.

I would also add that skill happens over time in any game. The more you play it the better you get at it. Skill is not just defined by what you play (PvP or PvE) or how you play it.

Quote:

The people who have just come into online gaming and think that Guild Wars is the best PVP ever in any game have a long way to go.

As a former championship level Counter Strike player I can fully agree on your brief synopsis. I would continue to play at a competition level but I just don't have the time any more. I'm sure I'm still very skilled at the game but I have not touched the game in over a year and two months. Less time playing less skilled I became. Same goes with PvP, the more you play the better skilled you are same with PvE, only PvE has an easier introduction.